Dildora Damisch

The edited transcript of Dildora Damisch interview

Janyl: Who were your parents, and how have they impacted who you are?

Dildora: My ancestor came, 1000 years ago, from Iraq to Tashkent. His name was a Sheikh (sheikh is a leader in a Muslim community or organization; in Central Asia they are considered to be the decendants of the Prophet Muhammed) He was a scholar of Sufism, and he came from Baghdad to Central Asia to spread Sufism among the local population. I have a family tree which goes back 45 generations. If you look at my family tree, you see that all the males of the tree were sheikhs, meaning they were scientists. We had generation after generation of people who were scientists (when I say scientist, I mean also theologian, Sufi scholars, really well-educated ancestors). If I look on my uncle’s tree, they were all scientists, physicists, and mathematicians.

My parents were highly educated. I recently watched a movie about a very famous judge in America, Ruth Ginsberg, who’s 86 years old, and I was surprised that even during the 70s, a woman who graduated from Harvard and Colombia university, cannot make a career. And I thought about my mom, who in 1956 went to Moscow and did her PhD. Can you imagine, 1956! My mom, from the countryside of Uzbekistan, was able to go to Moscow and study to get her PhD. And my father was the one who started Uzbek philharmonic, he started the Uzbek opera house. My parents always pushed me to study, education was number one. I remember as a child, when all the kids went outside to play, my mom said, “No! Stay at home, read a book”. Always read, read a book. And I remember that during the summer, every kid spent time outside, and I was reading a book. Even the local library said that I was the only one that went there during the summer and holidays. I learned from them that education is very important. I learned about different cultures from them, because during the day I went to Russian school, where I got a European education, and at home I had a Muslim cultural education. Both of my parents were very involved in community. My mom was the dean of faculty, but she was also a member of all female associations, societies, you know. Entrepreneur skills too. I think I got a lot of energy from them too. I really adore them; I am really proud to be their child.

Janyl: It’s interesting that in Central Asia, marrying a foreigner is often a traumatic experience because of traditions and religion, but your parents were highly educated modern Soviet intellectuals. So how was it for you to marry a foreigner?

Dildora: Actually, my parents were struggling to be married. As I said earlier, my father came from a very old family and it was very common to marry within the family. When he fell in love with my mother, who was an outsider from a province of Uzbekistan, his family was against the marriage. It took them 80 years to be married. This is why, when I met my husband from East Germany…

Janyl: How did you meet your husband, and what was their reaction when you declared to them you would marry a German man?

Dildora: Yeah, can you imagine in 1976 I was studying in Odessa, Ukraine, and I met my husband when I was 17 years old? I never ever thought in my life that I would fall in love with a foreigner, or someone not from my family. But it happened. As soon as I saw him, I understood that this is the person of my life. Of course, I hid it for a couple of months, but as soon as my family found out, my aunt, mother, and sister came to Odessa, and the first thing they told me was ‘No way, don’t even think about it’. And then, I graduated my fourth year and they took me back to Tashkent. My father said there was no way I would contact him.

I continued my studies in Tashkent, and Jurgen came several times to visit and we hid. This was an impossible situation: First, we have that custom, tradition, to only marry in our family, and second, I grew up in a communist system, and even though he was from East Germany, there was no way to go abroad to get married. And then, don’t forget, even though we didn’t practice religion, I grew up in a Muslim culture. In the Muslim culture in Uzbekistan, we cannot marry someone who’s ethnically different: Russians, even Tatars, or other ethnic groups. It was prohibited; unofficially you know, officially we were all brothers, you know, Soviet Union, blah blah blah. But when it comes to tradition, to marriage, no way. So, he was coming to visit me, and once I went there to him, but I never told my parents. I said I was going to Moscow to see my friends. It took me three years to fight, to be with him, and I was excluded from Komsomol (the young Communists’organisation) because of the relationship with a foreigner. They called me cosmopolitan, shamed me that I was not a patriot. They said that as a Komsomol member, I could not I be in a serious relationship with a foreigner.

Janyl: Komsomol is a young communist organization, everybody was in Komsomol (in Central Asia, for sure in Kyrgyzstan) and if you were not there, you would obviously have no career, no future.

Dildora: That was it. But you know I was young and in love. I inherited energy from my parents. I was very progressive, and I just maybe didn’t think about my future… I knew he was a good person. To be honest, this was very controversial: I went to a European school, where the girls were progressive and well-educated. And coming back home I was inside a Muslim culture. I was lost. I didn’t know where I belonged. The tradition was very strong in Uzbek families, and I hated it, I wanted to escape from it. I wanted to belong to the European part of my education.

It was always tough, but I did it. I couldn’t even leave the country after my junior year of university. I knew that if I didn’t move and marry my husband, I would give up. Even the dean of the university I was studying in said ‘We will exclude you from the university if you continue this relationship with this foreigner’. The only think I didn’t understand was that he was from East Germany. East Germany was, as you know, our ally, they had a Communist system, In reality, everything was different.

It was very hard, almost impossible to get documents to move to a foreign country, but I was lucky. There was a woman who helped me to get a foreign passport. She was a 42-year-old captain of OVIR [Department of visa and registration]. She was an Uzbek woman. She understood that without her help I would not be able to move. And she told me her story. She said once she made a mistake. She fell in love with a Russian guy, but her family was against it, and she gave up and regretted it for her entire life. She said, ‘Dildora, I want you to be happy. I want to support you’. And she helped me to simplify the whole application process. I’ve got my passport, and moved to Germany.

Janyl: And your parents, what did they do?

Dildora: To prevent me marrying Jurgen, they tried to arrange several marriages for me. I told them: “Okay, I will get married to the man of your choice, but I will run away the next day”. I said: “Parents, decide what’s better: I will run away the next day of the wedding or I will marry this German guy”. They just gave up. They could not stand to see me suffering, and they suffered too when they were young because their parents were against their marriage. They were in love and it was not that easy for them to get married, so possibly they understood me. They gave up. Now, I can understand looking back how much trouble I caused for them. Not only on a personal level, but in their careers too. Can you imagine in 1978, the girl from a typical Uzbek makhala (a traditional neighborhood) leaving her parents without their agreement? Not only her parents, but leaving the country and moving to Germany. It was tough for them. For me too.

Janyl: In Central Asia you are obliged to pay the bride price called a kalym when your son marries somebody’s daughter. How was that settled?

Dildora: My husband, who was 4 years older, graduated university in Russia and then went back to East Germany – he had to work there for three years after graduation because the country paid for his education. He came to Tashkent before his departure to visit my parents. He had a conversation with my father who told him: “You should pay a kalym!” It was so funny and my father later told me he was just joking. He told him: “Dildora’s price is 20 000 rubles”. Can you imagine what is 20 000 rubles? A lot of money.

Janyl: Yes, I can imagine. Volga – the best Soviet car, costed 9 000 rubles. That means the requested bride price was the price of two Volgas.

Dildora: Of two or three cars. My husband was in silence. I imagine he was calculating (laughter) how much and how to pay. He looked at my father and said: “I cannot afford to pay now, but I will take a loan from the bank and pay you in installments in the next 20 years, is it possible?” My father was amused, but said: “No way! Pay now, or you cannot marry my daughter!” He tried to create obstacles for Jurgen so that he gives up, which did not happen. I remember my last conversation with my father before I left for Germany. My father was in tears and said: “It’s your choice. If you will be unhappy, it’s your fault. You cannot blame anyone but remember, you will be extremely lonely in that country”. I remember this conversation a lot. I didn’t understand that day what he meant. I understood when I moved to Germany. It’s a different country, and I went through a lot of loneliness.

Janyl: I had an impression you were a tremendously happy couple with Jurgen, and but now I hear a lot of sadness in your voice. How was it for you to come to Germany where you eventually spent many years.

Dildora: From the beginning, I didn’t want to move to a foreign country. I was a genuine patriot, like all my friends. I grew up in the best country in the world. I didn’t want to move to Germany, but my husband promised me we will come back to Uzbekistan. He would work for 3 years and then we could come back to Tashkent. When I moved to Germany, it was really a culture shock. Can you imagine someone from Uzbekistan, from an extensive family, a vast community, families visiting you every day, and all contacts with the neighbors? I ended up in a culture of tremendously reserved people. Even to go to the neighbors to ask for some eggs or some sugar, which we did all the time, was unacceptable. You always need to make appointments, six months, weeks ahead. It was shocking. I am a social person. When I said that I was experiencing loneliness, I was really lonely. I couldn’t easily visit Jurgen’s family, his parents. I couldn’t easily knock the doors of my neighbors and say: “Hey! Do you want a cup of tea or coffee?” They always said: “No, we don’t do this in our country!” I remember I rang my neighbors; I needed some eggs. I asked: “Can I borrow an egg. I will go to the grocery store and bring you later”. She said: “Dildora, learn, no! We don’t do this”. A lot of things like this. It was tough for me. It is possible that I survived because I was in deep love with my husband. It was rather hard for me not to have friends and a family around us. It made me exponentially sad, and it made me feel lonely.

Janyl: It’s interesting because when I came to Germany, one of the first people who invited us to their home was you. My adaptation to the West was, I can tell you now, painless in a big part because of you. You and Jurgen were so hospitable. Your family was a meeting venue for so many of us, the immigrants, all the time. I felt at home. Now you live in the US. How different is it now? Who is your community today?

Dildora: It’s a unique culture. If you compare the United States with Europe… Europe is a monoculture. This is a place which doesn’t let foreigners easily assimilate. It doesn’t matter how good you are, how good it is for Germany, what kind of career you have. You will stay an outsider and a stranger. The US is a melting pot. Immigrants built the US as a country. People like me. Everyone here is like me. I think therefore this society is more open and more welcoming. I usually say when I compare two different worlds: the European and the US. When you come to Europe, people ask, “Where are you from?” The second question is “When are you leaving?” When you come to the United States, they ask, “Where are you from?” and they say “Welcome! When will you apply for citizenship?” It’s so easy to socialize here. People are welcoming. It doesn’t matter which community. I befriended a lot of men and women in a Russian-speaking community, among the Iranian, Indian, Arabic-speaking, Chinese and the Americans. It’s so easy. It reminds me more of my home country Uzbekistan than Germany. It’s so easy to knock on the door like I did in my country, visit my friend, get together. We always socialize, especially now during the quarantine. I was talking to my couple of friends about it. That it is so easy for us to survive compared to the Americans because we easily communicate, we easily contact, we easily go out. This is a vast difference between the two different worlds.

Janyl: Have you ever pondered that it was a mistake to come to Europe and the US?

Dildora: I cannot say. It’s a tough question. I missed my family, especially my parents. When I used to live in Europe, that was the only thing. I miss my parents, but I gave them a chance to come to visit me every year in Europe. I showed them the world. When I reflect today I don’t think it was a mistake. I was living in Europe for 18 years, I gained so much of European culture. I experienced so many wonderful things. I’m coming to the United States… Actually, the first two years were quite tough to understand the American mentality which differs totally from ours and European. I am not regretting because I learned so much; I gained much in the culture and experience of a different life. No, I don’t believe I regret.

Janyl: You were a journalist for so many years in Germany for an international radio which broadcasted to Uzbekistan in the Uzbek language. Now you own a successful business of caring for older people in the US. How did you come to start this business?

Dildora: I not only own a home-care business, the Detroit downtown tour business has been evolving well too. When my husband died in Germany, a lot of friends invited me to move back to the United States.

Janyl: I invited you to come to Prague, but you did not listen to me.

Dildora: Because I have a lot of friends in the US, they were calling me when I was going through the grieving. They told me to come over, I will support you, I will help you. I moved 8 years ago back to the United States and it was a good decision. A lot of my friends around me supported me. I started translating at the hospitals. Most of the people who I translated for were elderly people. I started this business because I have chemistry towards elderly people; I could listen to them, help them. I tried to understand those who are lonely. Most of these people were 60 or 70-year-old emigrants who had to move to the United States from their countries because of their kids. I sympathize with them and I wanted to support them. This is how I started my home-care business. Then, I started taking them to Detroit because these people are stuck in their apartments. They didn’t learn much about the United States.

I started teaching them the basics of English. I started teaching them the value of the American culture. I started taking them to Detroit. Majority of these elders are sophisticated and educated people. I said: “When I take them to Detroit, I need to learn about Detroit”. This is what I started my research in Detroit and I fell in love with the city of Detroit. I started the second business–Detroit downtown tour and that has proved to be a success. Right now because of quarantine I cannot tell what the future of this business will be, but my home-care business is doing pretty well.

Janyl: I cannot say how it is in the US exactly. We hear different things in the news. The COVID 19 epidemic in fact exposed the lack of compassion for the elderly, at least in Europe. For example, in Spain they abandoned a house for the elderly with dead people inside. In France I lived next to such a house, and I understood that they don’t provide these houses with much medical care let alone urgent care or the ventilators. They asked the elderly to stay inside alone in their rooms, and I was quite depressed about this. I perceive it as an oldicide – I even invented this new word after femicide, it is when women are killed for their gender. What is your consideration these days as someone who works with the elderly?

Dildora: I work with 60 clients right now. Fortunately, I had only two cases when elderly people were positive for corona viruses, but they did not fall sick. They live in a subsidized apartment building; they are not living in nursing homes or independent living. We serve them. The kids are supporting them and because most of my clients are Chinese, Russian, Ukrainian, and Romanian, their kids are still taking care of them. They are calling them, contacting them, and visiting them. Once in a while. Caregivers visit them every day. They are suffering from loneliness, but I am so happy that not one of them died or became sick from coronavirus.

Janyl: You come from this background where elderly are the kings and queens of the family and community, so when you deal with your clients (laughter) who are lonely at home although they have children, they live somewhere else and they call once in a while. What is your opinion? You accept this as given, or sometimes it’s difficult for you?

Dildora: Yes, of course, it’s a different culture. When I am talking about cultures, I experienced 3 distinct cultures. One was Uzbek culture, as you said we highly respect parents and elderly people. Then I used to live in Germany. I cannot say about France. I’m talking about Germany where people hardly contact their parents or have any relationship with them. This always made me very sick and made me very sick that you can have contact with your parents or grandparents only by making appointments. In the United States, it’s different. It reminds me of my Uzbek culture. Working with elderly people for less than 7 years, I saw that the American kids are taking care of their parents. I think they are responsible, especially baby boomers. They are responsible for their parents. It reminds me of my culture. I cannot complain, I am happy how they treat them. For example, yesterday we had Mother’s Day and you can see almost everyone made gifts, phone calls. Before the coronavirus they always took parents outside for a brunch. It’s different here in the United States with the kids taking care of the elderly people. Even when their parents are in a nursing home, independent living, they always regularly visit them.

Janyl: I don’t know how it is for you. Today people have difficulties because they stay at home alone because of a pandemic. How are you managing?

Dildora: To be honest, I am so busy because I have several projects which I never had time to do. I’m taking more time for myself. I started meditation, which I never did. I spend a lot of time in nature. I go for a walk; I listen to some books, music, I meditate. I finish writing a book that I finally want to publish now, and I am still working on my business. I have time to contact my family and cousins. If I contacted before once in a week my son in Germany, now we do it almost every day. I think there are advantages and disadvantages. I see a lot of advantages; many have time for themselves. Not anymore rush, run. They have more time to connect to their families. I hear this a lot. Yes, as I told you because of our mentality, we can easily pick up the phone and call our friends here. For the people with a western mentality who are more reserved, for whom it’s difficult to call or to socialize, it’s probably tough. I can see that my American friends, they are suffering a lot mentally. I don’t know what will happen when the quarantine is over. How healthy the mental life will be. This is my concern.

Janyl: I find it difficult to call people too. I don’t know where it comes from because in my childhood we grew up without having a telephone. Maybe that’s the reason. (laughter)

Dildora:No, I think maybe you still live with people more reserved than in the United States. I don’t know. I like to be in The US because they remind me of my culture more. People are very social in the US. They like the community, they like activities and are more easy-going than people in European countries. I even visited several times my Italian friends. You know, the image of an Italian: “Oh, easy, social”. No, they changed today. They became more reserved. Does it depend on people when they have a higher materialistic level, more materialistic, they are less social? I can recognize, I don’t understand this.

Janyl: They have too many refugees and have to be more careful.

Dildora: Careful you mean physically careful or what?

Janyl:  I’m trying to joke. (laughter)

Dildora: Here too. Some Americans pretend to be happy perpetually. Now, their image is broken when they are lonely at home. They have to complain; they have to show their nature. A human being can’t be happy day in and day out. Pretending to be happy is wrong. Then, when something like quarantine happens, you are broken because you are a human being. Don’t pretend you are happy. We are human beings. This is what I like, my friends are from different cultures. When I feel sad, I always pick up the phone, call my friend, go for a walk and talk to her. We need not pretend to be perfect. We are not perfect; we are human beings. I think it’s tough for people in Western Europe when they don’t have these social skills. It’s probably very tough for them too during the quarantine. I’m glad that I’m here, not there.

Janyl: You have lived longest in the West from people I know from our region and I also now have lived more than half of my life in the West. That creates a kind of condition when you think one thing, but the reality is different. For example, reading news about the home may be more depressing than the reality back at home. There is a huge rise in radical Islam, for example in Kyrgyzstan. It’s not Uzbekistan. Uzbekistan is very secular. Recently, we have been visiting Uzbekistan for several weeks every year. I became anxious to go back home, but in fact I feel like nothing really changed much. With relatives… sometimes they come to visit us. There is a kind of cultural clash you think, but junior people understand everything I say, they understand the way I speak (laughter). So, for you this connection with your home country and home culture, how does it work?

Dildora: I’m surprised that you consider even taking Kyrgyzstan to be home. Uzbekistan is not home for me anymore. It’s an unfamiliar country. Soviet Uzbekistan was different from that Uzbekistan today. Last time I went there 10 years ago I was really shocked. I was shocked to realize the value I had when I grew up has disappeared. People had different values. You say that Uzbekistan is not so radical, religious, secular. I don’t agree with you. When I talked yesterday to my cousins who are still living in Uzbekistan, they are all praying, they all consider themselves good Muslims, they have like fasting right now. Everybody says: “Oh, are you praying, are you Muslim, are you fasting?” It’s shocking for me, it’s a different country. These are not the same people or the same values which I grew up with. No way! I remember when I was in the funerals of my mom all her friends were Ph.D., all the scientists. Suddenly they all became Muslim. They covered their heads, and they requested of me: “Why don’t you cover your head? You are Muslim”. I said: “I am not Muslim and you guys are not Muslim. You grew up in Muslim culture but unfortunately or fortunately you don’t have nothing about the Muslim religion. You have to be careful”. This society changed. I have no eagerness to go back to Uzbekistan, I have no interest because even the streets I grew up in are different, people are different. I see nothing in common with me. Unfortunately, we lost this value of excellent education. We don’t have this anymore. Ideology? Yes it was Communist ideology. It had bad and good things in it. I always appreciated the education we had, I always appreciated the access to the European culture, we had Russian, Communist ideology, but these all disappeared! Where are those 70 years of Socialism? Why we came back returning to feudalism? Back to this tradition of arranged marriages, covering your head, following the Muslim religious traditions. These people don’t know what it is. This is dangerous. If you don’t really know what Muslim religion is. It’s like a fundamentalist leader who comes to your country and leads you to a dangerous way of this religion. Janyl, I have no connection to this country, Uzbekistan today. I think it’s different. I lost my country, it’s so sad.

Janyl: I understand what you mean but I think I feel still connected with my country, because my work has been always connected with Kyrgyzstan and sometimes I feel sadness too. I feel as if I lost my country, but I will forever be Kyrgyz. (laughter) I think I will never become French. I think Uzbekistan was a center of Islam in Central Asia. In my country, in Kyrgyzstan the rise of radical Islam is more imported and not from Uzbekistan, but it comes from Pakistan, from Turkey, from Saudi Arabia. Uzbekistan might be going in that direction, I cannot be sure. They may have a new importation of radical Islam. In Kyrgyzstan we already have Pakistanization. There are big clashes. For example, very huge intolerance towards Christians. We have a traditional belief system–Tengirism, which is based on the supremacy of ancestral spirits and Nature. Islamists viciously attack them on every level. It’s difficult, I would say. It will not be easy, and I am sad what you said about the disconnect with Uzbekistan. Yes, this is the reality for many women. They are more secular. In Kyrgyzstan many of them converted to Christianity. There were a lot of missionaries from the USA and South Korea. The missionaries converted a lot of women… I have very close relatives and I am terrified of how much they believe in what they say and how much they believe that all others are wrong. They cannot go out and talk about it because of other’s lack of acceptance. Intolerance is from both sides. (laughter)

Dildora: You know, I am sad because we didn’t grow up in religious society; we didn’t grow up in Muslim religion, but we grew up in Muslim culture. These are two distinct things. Someone like you say radical Islam people coming and brainwashing and leaving these people in the wrong direction. Radical Muslims are dangerous. I know I cannot do anything, I cannot help. It makes me sad. Sometimes I think every society, every culture has developed and has evolved. Maybe we were too early to get to Socialism and being after Socialism Communist ideology for 70 years maybe wasn’t enough. Now, we are jumping back to the feudal system. I cannot understand where is this value that we had. Why we lost this so fast: culture, education, Europeanization, why are we losing this so fast? I cannot find the answer to this question. In my soul I am Uzbek, and thanks to my education I have both mentalities, European and Uzbek mentalities makes me so rich to grow up bilingual which helps me to absorb easily other cultures: European and American. I consider myself not Uzbek; I consider myself a cosmopolitan person. Because of this background I can appreciate different cultures. I am eager to learn about new cultures, new languages just because of my background, because I grew up in these two distinct cultures and two different societies. I’m missing this. I’m so sorry that people in my country Uzbekistan will not have what I had by growing up there.

Janyl: I don’t think we lost the war if we call it a war, this clash of civilizations. Women will continue at least in Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan: they are fighting, they are speaking up. There are many men who support them. Uzbekistan is very secular; for example they are very open about nationalities. In Kyrgyzstan people are afraid to talk about their ethnic background because they might be attacked easily. But in Uzbekistan they say: “Oh, you are Kazakh, you are Kyrgyz, you are like this, I have friends who are Kazakhs and they feel comfortable”. They don’t have this contradiction between people. There is still much more tolerance and much more openness in Uzbekistan. It takes time to have big changes. Finishing our conversation, I would like to speak a little about more positive things, or at least about hope. How do you see the end of coronavirus and how that will work out for your business, for your clients?

Dildora: If you talk about my tour business, probably it won’t come in the next two years. It is normal as people stop traveling and I’m very sad because I just became very successful. I don’t think it made big changes for my home care businesses because we did not shut down; we continued. All my caregivers are still working. I don’t see if it will be any changes. Homecare businesses will be the same. The world will change, definitely, the world will change. I don’t know how. I can say that everything will be slower. There will not be any more running. We will be very cautious going outside even going to restaurants or going shopping. Automatically we will probably continue keeping a distance. I think exceptional things will happen. We will think more about the environment. Maybe we will start traveling locally. Maybe agriculture tourism will develop. This is what I am thinking. I personally won’t stop traveling because my kids are still in Germany, in Europe. I will continue to go there. Maybe this coronavirus will lead me to a new direction. Maybe I will start a new business. I’m thinking about it. Concerning changing the society and the hobbies of the people – I am positive. Maybe the Earth, nature, needed this break. Put everyone at home and say: “Hey, guys, let me breathe a little” because we are not traveling, we are not flying, we are not driving like crazy everybody says that pollution becomes better. I think personally in the US people will change, will start eating more healthy food. Maybe they will start having healthier style of life, more exercising. I can only see positive things. It’s a pity that so many people lost their jobs. Maybe they will start something different. I don’t know, but I am positive.

Janyl: If people want to get in touch with you, how they can find you?

Dildora: I have an e-mail; you can contact me by e-mail.

Janyl: I wish you to stay safe, please, and we will be in touch hopefully in more agreeable times. If you are in Europe, you are welcome to our place. I will make an Uzbek lagman for you.

Dildora: Oh, Janyl! I will make lagman today! Can you send the recipes? (laughter)

Janyl: Yes, lagman is pasta basically. I believe that Alexander the Great brought pasta to Italy. Lagman is an amazing Uygur.

Dildora: Pasta came from China to Italy.

Janyl: Exactly.

The Uygur people, the minority in China, they created this dish. You know, next to my place there is a couple from Xinjian and they like stretching the door pasta, you can make it. I know this; you did it. Every time when I go there I always remember you making this lagman pasta, stretching this. This is what I will never learn.

Janyl: I do it better now, so I look forward.

Dildora:Okay, thank you! Be healthy, be safe!

Janyl: Stay safe!